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What's under the hood?
#21
Hi guys,

First, thanks for jumping in, Ben.

Anyway, I did some tests here. I really can't help myself. My curiosity is too strong.

I ended up with a bunch of analytical images which are pretty boring to most people. Just in case, here's a link to them, in case anyone is interested. Each image is named accordingly to its representation, i.e; "whitenoise, masterbus, lowshelf low", which means I've sent whitenoise to the masterbus and applied a full negative lowshelf eq.

Link to the full album:

http://s592.photobucket.com/user/rafaelm...t=3&page=1

Anyway, here are my most interesting observations...

The mixbus tape really does add a smooth negative highshelf roll-off by itself, starting at around 5Khz, as you can see here:

http://s592.photobucket.com/user/rafaelm...ort=3&o=21

And the mixbus tape does add a bunch of third-order harmonics indeed. This test was done using a 1Khz sine wave. You can observe harmonic spikes at 3,5,7,9 and 11Khz:

http://s592.photobucket.com/user/rafaelm...ort=3&o=19

(The masterbus tape behaves a little differently. It just adds one harmonic at 3Khz, instead of a sequence of them)

Another interesting observation is that the track/channel EQ adds a small lowshelf filter by itself, even if you leave all the knobs in the neutral position. In other words, turn it on and it automatically adds a lowshelf, as you can see here.

http://s592.photobucket.com/user/rafaelm...ort=3&o=13

There are other interesting things. All three EQs (track, mixbus, master) behave very differently indeed. The track EQ is more surgical and has a very wide gain range, it imparts a wide lowshelf automatically even if all knobs are neutral. The mixbus EQ has nice, wide and smooth curves. The master EQ is very very very subtle.

The compressors are all extremely clean and transparent, as far as I could test them. Apparently none of them produced any harmonics, aliasing or unusual artifacts, as far as measuring with a static 1Khz sine waves allows to observe.

My basic preliminary conclusion is that Mixbus sounds great because it's clean and transparent. Instead of emulating the "analogue sound" by adding excessive distortion and harmonics, it does it by avoiding the appearance of inharmonic digital artifacts. It's got a very transparent and clean signal flow.

95% of so called "analogue inspired" plugins are nothing but a mess of aliasing, inharmonic distortions and exaggerated harmonics with pretty GUIs. Add those on every track of a production and you'll end up with a big mess at the end of the chain.

That's NOT how Mixbus does its thing, apparently; There's no saturation anywhere besides a very moderate amount of harmonics on the tape saturation stage. EQs and Comps are crystal clear. Maybe the openness and depth of its mixes are simply the result of good and clean algorithms, tasteful equalizing curves and transparent compression after all.

Anyway, that's it.

Morgan.
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#22
(07-22-2015, 01:55 PM)RMorgan Wrote: There are other interesting things. All three EQs (track, mixbus, master) behave very differently indeed. The track EQ is more surgical and has a very wide gain range. The mixbus EQ has nice, wide and smooth curves. The master EQ is very very very subtle.

The compressors are all extremely clean, as far as I could test them. None of them produced any harmonics, aliasing or weird artifacts.

Anyway, that's it.

Morgan.


ooooh! I like it very much Morgan!

Thx for your time to investigate!

Ray!
Cool
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#23
Thanks for the no BS, no "snake oil" explanation. We really shouldn't ask for anything more than a signal path that keeps our audio as clean and aliasing-free as possible. If I want to drive a channel into distortion, there are plenty of plugins for that.
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#24
And those on you that are hearing hiss. What do you have the input at the top of the channel strip set to?

I ask because the first time I imported a session, the hiss was driving me nuts. I finally realized every channel was on auto. So when not playing, I was hearing my interface pres 24 times. Fwiw I'm using an inexpensive 2 channel interface at the moment. So that doesn't help. But during playback the hiss went away. Anyway I set all the channels to "Disc" and all is good no more hiss.
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#25
I wonder if you "import" tracks (rather than make new tracks for recording), maybe the channel inputs shouldn't be assigned to any physical inputs... ?
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#26
(07-22-2015, 07:13 PM)Ian Ballard Wrote: Thanks for the no BS, no "snake oil" explanation. We really shouldn't ask for anything more than a signal path that keeps our audio as clean and aliasing-free as possible. If I want to drive a channel into distortion, there are plenty of plugins for that.

Sure, you're welcome.

However, I don't really get one thing...

Except for the analogue "vibe" caused by the console style GUI and the old-school workflow that follows , Mixbus appears to be doing nothing really "special" to the sound?

I mean, its tape emulation, for example, seems to be way simpler than other tape simulation vsts like U-he Satin, Sknote's Roundtone, ToneBooster's Reelbus or Slate's. I may be totally wrong, but as far as I could see, it just rolls off some high frequencies and adds a short sequence of third order harmonics (it probably does some slight compression and soft-clipping as well).

Its EQ and compressors are really musical, but surely there are equivalent or even better compressors and EQs out there available as vsts.

As far as I'm concerned, I could setup a plugin combo (eq+comp) using quality plugins that is as clean and transparent as Mixbus' channel-strip in any other DAW...And I could also do the same thing for busses and even add a superior tape emulation to them.

So, with all due respect, I still don't get why Mixbus is actually a DAW. So far, I haven't found anything that its capable of that couldn't be done as a plugin. I'm starting to think it was a marketing decision instead of a technical one.

Don't get me wrong. Mixbus does sound really good, but It's almost like it sounds good because its workflow kind of prevents people from using overly-distorted third party plugins...It cognitively induces people to do more with less, which translates into a cleaner mix at the end of the path. It kind of satisfies the analogue "craving" with cosmetic and cognitive vibe but delivers a sound which is as pure as digital can get?

Again, I might be totally wrong. I'm not technically qualified to achieve a scientifically sound conclusion about it. Please, feel free to correct me. I'm all ears.
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#27
And there you have it. Freudian displacement. You enticed everyone with a delectable inquiry. Make everyone feel like their responses are inadequate. Then, answer your on query as no one else could. Once you start to get praise for what appears to be the answer to the ultimate question. You proceed to belittle the significance and importance of the very subject. Let me stop.

Basically your last 4 paragraphs confirm what all is true mixbus lovers know. You have to spend thousands of dollars to get the sound of a SEVENTY NINE DOLLAR piece of software. That my friend IS the bottom line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
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#28
(07-23-2015, 01:12 AM)tinoroho Wrote: And there you have it. Freudian displacement. You enticed everyone with a delectable inquiry. Make everyone feel like their responses are inadequate. Then, answer your on query as no one else could. Once you start to get praise for what appears to be the answer to the ultimate question. You proceed to belittle the significance and importance of the very subject. Let me stop.

I have no idea on what you're talking about here. English is not my first language so it might be a misunderstanding, but it seems that you're suggesting that I'm playing games here? Making people feel inadequate? Belittling the subject? Honestly, I'm just trying to have a conversation about something that interests me and that's all.

(07-23-2015, 01:12 AM)tinoroho Wrote: Basically your last 4 paragraphs confirm what all is true mixbus lovers know. You have to spend thousands of dollars to get the sound of a SEVENTY NINE DOLLAR piece of software. That my friend IS the bottom line.

Yes, absolutely, but there are also free or very inexpensive software who would get you in the same ballpark in terms of clean and transparent signal path and processing.
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#29
(07-23-2015, 01:12 AM)tinoroho Wrote: And there you have it. Freudian displacement. You enticed everyone with a delectable inquiry. Make everyone feel like their responses are inadequate. Then, answer your on query as no one else could. Once you start to get praise for what appears to be the answer to the ultimate question. You proceed to belittle the significance and importance of the very subject. Let me stop.

Basically your last 4 paragraphs confirm what all is true mixbus lovers know. You have to spend thousands of dollars to get the sound of a SEVENTY NINE DOLLAR piece of software. That my friend IS the bottom line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Bloody well said tinoroho ....That my friend IS the bottom line
Macmini 8,1 | OS X 13.6.3 | 3 GHz i5 32G | Scarlett 18i20 | Mixbus 10 | PT_2024.3.1 .....  Macmini 9,1 | OS X 14.4.1 | M1 2020 | Mixbus 10 | Resolve 18.6.5
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#30
(07-23-2015, 01:12 AM)tinoroho Wrote: And there you have it. Freudian displacement. You enticed everyone with a delectable inquiry. Make everyone feel like their responses are inadequate. Then, answer your on query as no one else could. Once you start to get praise for what appears to be the answer to the ultimate question. You proceed to belittle the significance and importance of the very subject. Let me stop.

Basically your last 4 paragraphs confirm what all is true mixbus lovers know. You have to spend thousands of dollars to get the sound of a SEVENTY NINE DOLLAR piece of software. That my friend IS the bottom line.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
I read this post with great interest, very much like i did on another forum (GS) when I first discovered mixbus and I think that a lot of Rmorgan's observations about mixbus reflects what was said there; such as with the eq giving a 3db dip just by being switched on etc.
I have to say Tinoroho, your comment is very "musical", I could not have expressed it any better

Jouvert
Mixbus/Windows- VST Plugins
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