Plugin not working

[phil]

Hello

I do not understand why a plugin does not appear in the plugin manager. I am using Mixbus 6 on Ubuntu 18.04.

I downloaded this "VSTi (2.4) for x64 Linux" Tunefish synth plugin. It has an .so file which I put in "/home/phil/.vst/". However, when I scan for plugins it doesn't appear in the plugin manager.

The .vst folder is in the Mixbus vst path (I have other .so plugins there which work). The Tunefish.so has same permissions as the other .so which work.

Am I missing a step which may make this plugin work or does this mean it will never work? If the latter how can I tell if a plugin will or will not work, or is it just suck it and see?

Any explanation most appreciated. I am not too technical/experienced so I may be making a basic mistake.

Thanks, Phil

[madmaxmiller]

The .vst folder is in the Mixbus vst path (I have other .so plugins there which work). The Tunefish.so has same permissions as the other .so which work.

You might be at something here...
I tried myself and found the VST path might not be scanned at all. So I deleted the VST cache and added something to the VST path, thus triggering a scan - and there it was.
Thanks btw for reminding me try out the tunefish
MMM

[phil]

Hello madmaxmiller

Thanks for your help again. Unfortunately I still cannot see Tunefish. Here's what I did:

-Delete "home/phil/.vst" from path
-Clear vst cache and vst blacklist
-Add "home/phil/.vst" to path
-Press "yes" when asked to rescan

I also did the above with variations: restart Mixbus and Ubuntu, try V3 of Tunefish. scan for vst with preferences button and on restart, try Mixbus 5.

I don't think I am confused over directories. The other plugins (u-he) in .vst folder seem to come and go from plugin manager as expected when deleting/adding the .vst folder from/to path.

I then tried dropping the Tunefish4.so into "/opt/Mixbus-6.1.22/lib/LV2/" but that didn't work either. I guess LV2 is different from VST but both come in .so files?

[tavasti]

Try from command line running like this:

Code:

LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/opt/Mixbus-6.0.697/lib/ /opt/Mixbus-6.0.697/lib/ardour-vst-scanner ~/.vst/Tunefish4.so

That might give you some error message which tells reason

[madmaxmiller]

Hello madmaxmiller
Thanks for your help again. Unfortunately I still cannot see Tunefish. Here's what I did:

That's odd. Have you tried to put it into a global path?
/usr/lib/vst/

MMM
Edit: also: can you see it in Carla?

[keefaz]

I would try quick ldd and file commands on the .so file (ldd for fast checking not found library and file for checking architecture, 32bits or 64bits)
Maybe suggested command by tavasti could be more revealing though

[phil]

Thanks for the responses. I'm still having no joy. I am a novice with plugins so worry I am doing something so daft that no one thinks that could be the problem. I appreciate the help and would like to get to the bottom of this but I don't want to try anyone's patience. I can live without a synth. Having said that...

When Mixbus scans for plugins I can see the TuneFish appear quickly as a scanned file. It gives no indication of error but when I search the plugin manager for "fish" I see nothing, when "tune" I see tuners and detuners but no tunefish.

tavasti, I changed the cmd to include my version (Mixbus-6.1.22) and it returned no message.

Code:

phil@phils-pc:~$ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/opt/Mixbus-6.1.22/lib/ /opt/Mixbus-6.1.22/lib/ardour-vst-scanner ~/.vst/Tunefish4.so
phil@phils-pc:~$

madmaxmiller, I put it in /usr/lib/vst/ , cleared vst cache and rescanned but no change. In Carla I refeshed the plugin list with a scan for all formats (whilst Tunefish4.so was in both vst directories) but "Tunefish" was not visible in Carla plugin list.

keefaz, I ran the cmds you suggested. The lld cmd return did not include the text "not found" which is what I think we were looking for from my quick google of the command. I paste the output at the bottom anyway just in case you are kind enough to glance over it.

RE: architecture. This confirms my pc is 64 right?:

Code:

phil@phils-pc:~/.vst$ dpkg --print-architecture
amd64

And I think this tells us the .so is 64:

Code:

phil@phils-pc:~/.vst$ file Tunefish4.so
Tunefish4.so: ELF 64-bit LSB shared object, x86-64, version 1 (GNU/Linux), dynamically linked, BuildID[sha1]=236ed873353dfa928c9b1d6b620edbc2c8d0acda, not stripped

Code:

phil@phils-pc:~/.vst$ ldd Tunefish4.so
    linux-vdso.so.1 (0x00007ffcbc6d1000)
    libasound.so.2 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libasound.so.2 (0x00007f49d0fb2000)
    libfreetype.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libfreetype.so.6 (0x00007f49d0cfe000)
    libX11.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11.so.6 (0x00007f49d09c6000)
    libXext.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXext.so.6 (0x00007f49d07b4000)
    libwebkit2gtk-4.0.so.37 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libwebkit2gtk-4.0.so.37 (0x00007f49cd73d000)
    libgtk-3.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgtk-3.so.0 (0x00007f49cce35000)
    libgobject-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgobject-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f49ccbe1000)
    libglib-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libglib-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f49cc8ca000)
    libGL.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libGL.so.1 (0x00007f49cc63e000)
    libdl.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdl.so.2 (0x00007f49cc43a000)
    libpthread.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpthread.so.0 (0x00007f49cc21b000)
    librt.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/librt.so.1 (0x00007f49cc013000)
    libstdc++.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libstdc++.so.6 (0x00007f49cbc8a000)
    libm.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libm.so.6 (0x00007f49cb8ec000)
    libgcc_s.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcc_s.so.1 (0x00007f49cb6d4000)
    libc.so.6 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libc.so.6 (0x00007f49cb2e3000)
    /lib64/ld-linux-x86-64.so.2 (0x00007f49d1fa4000)
    libpng16.so.16 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpng16.so.16 (0x00007f49cb0b1000)
    libz.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libz.so.1 (0x00007f49cae94000)
    libxcb.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb.so.1 (0x00007f49cac6c000)
    libgdk-3.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgdk-3.so.0 (0x00007f49ca976000)
    libpango-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpango-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49ca729000)
    libatk-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libatk-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49ca503000)
    libcairo.so.2 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcairo.so.2 (0x00007f49ca1e6000)
    libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgdk_pixbuf-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c9fc2000)
    libgio-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgio-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c9c23000)
    libEGL.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libEGL.so.1 (0x00007f49c9a0f000)
    libnotify.so.4 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libnotify.so.4 (0x00007f49c9807000)
    libsqlite3.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsqlite3.so.0 (0x00007f49c94fe000)
    libxml2.so.2 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxml2.so.2 (0x00007f49c913d000)
    libxslt.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxslt.so.1 (0x00007f49c8f00000)
    libjavascriptcoregtk-4.0.so.18 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjavascriptcoregtk-4.0.so.18 (0x00007f49c7a6b000)
    libicui18n.so.60 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libicui18n.so.60 (0x00007f49c75ca000)
    libicuuc.so.60 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libicuuc.so.60 (0x00007f49c7212000)
    libwoff2dec.so.1.0.2 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libwoff2dec.so.1.0.2 (0x00007f49c7007000)
    libharfbuzz.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libharfbuzz.so.0 (0x00007f49c6d69000)
    libharfbuzz-icu.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libharfbuzz-icu.so.0 (0x00007f49c6b66000)
    libfontconfig.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libfontconfig.so.1 (0x00007f49c6921000)
    libgcrypt.so.20 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgcrypt.so.20 (0x00007f49c6605000)
    libgstapp-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgstapp-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c63f6000)
    libgstbase-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgstbase-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c6181000)
    libgstreamer-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgstreamer-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c5e46000)
    libgstpbutils-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgstpbutils-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c5c0e000)
    libgstaudio-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgstaudio-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c5999000)
    libgsttag-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgsttag-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c575e000)
    libgstvideo-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgstvideo-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c54c5000)
    libgstgl-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgstgl-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c525f000)
    libgstfft-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgstfft-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c5054000)
    libjpeg.so.8 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libjpeg.so.8 (0x00007f49c4dec000)
    libwebp.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libwebp.so.6 (0x00007f49c4b83000)
    libwebpdemux.so.2 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libwebpdemux.so.2 (0x00007f49c497e000)
    libsoup-2.4.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsoup-2.4.so.1 (0x00007f49c468b000)
    libenchant.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libenchant.so.1 (0x00007f49c447f000)
    libgmodule-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgmodule-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c427b000)
    libsecret-1.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsecret-1.so.0 (0x00007f49c402b000)
    libtasn1.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libtasn1.so.6 (0x00007f49c3e18000)
    libhyphen.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libhyphen.so.0 (0x00007f49c3c12000)
    libXcomposite.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXcomposite.so.1 (0x00007f49c3a0f000)
    libXdamage.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXdamage.so.1 (0x00007f49c380c000)
    libwayland-server.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libwayland-server.so.0 (0x00007f49c35f9000)
    libwayland-egl.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libwayland-egl.so.1 (0x00007f49c33f7000)
    libwayland-client.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libwayland-client.so.0 (0x00007f49c31e8000)
    libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpangocairo-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c2fdb000)
    libXi.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXi.so.6 (0x00007f49c2dcb000)
    libXfixes.so.3 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXfixes.so.3 (0x00007f49c2bc5000)
    libcairo-gobject.so.2 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcairo-gobject.so.2 (0x00007f49c29bc000)
    libatk-bridge-2.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libatk-bridge-2.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c278b000)
    libepoxy.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libepoxy.so.0 (0x00007f49c248a000)
    libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpangoft2-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49c2274000)
    libffi.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libffi.so.6 (0x00007f49c206c000)
    libpcre.so.3 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpcre.so.3 (0x00007f49c1dfa000)
    libGLX.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libGLX.so.0 (0x00007f49c1bc9000)
    libGLdispatch.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libGLdispatch.so.0 (0x00007f49c1913000)
    libXau.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXau.so.6 (0x00007f49c170f000)
    libXdmcp.so.6 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXdmcp.so.6 (0x00007f49c1509000)
    libXinerama.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXinerama.so.1 (0x00007f49c1306000)
    libXrandr.so.2 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXrandr.so.2 (0x00007f49c10fb000)
    libXcursor.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXcursor.so.1 (0x00007f49c0ef1000)
    libxkbcommon.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxkbcommon.so.0 (0x00007f49c0cb2000)
    libwayland-cursor.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libwayland-cursor.so.0 (0x00007f49c0aaa000)
    libthai.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libthai.so.0 (0x00007f49c08a1000)
    libpixman-1.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libpixman-1.so.0 (0x00007f49c05fc000)
    libxcb-shm.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb-shm.so.0 (0x00007f49c03f9000)
    libxcb-render.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libxcb-render.so.0 (0x00007f49c01ec000)
    libXrender.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libXrender.so.1 (0x00007f49bffe2000)
    libselinux.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libselinux.so.1 (0x00007f49bfdba000)
    libresolv.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libresolv.so.2 (0x00007f49bfb9f000)
    libmount.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libmount.so.1 (0x00007f49bf94b000)
    liblzma.so.5 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/liblzma.so.5 (0x00007f49bf725000)
    libicudata.so.60 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libicudata.so.60 (0x00007f49bdb7c000)
    libwoff2common.so.1.0.2 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libwoff2common.so.1.0.2 (0x00007f49bd979000)
    libbrotlidec.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libbrotlidec.so.1 (0x00007f49bd76d000)
    libgraphite2.so.3 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgraphite2.so.3 (0x00007f49bd540000)
    libexpat.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libexpat.so.1 (0x00007f49bd30e000)
    libgpg-error.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgpg-error.so.0 (0x00007f49bd0f9000)
    liborc-0.4.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/liborc-0.4.so.0 (0x00007f49bce7d000)
    libgstallocators-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgstallocators-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49bcc79000)
    libX11-xcb.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libX11-xcb.so.1 (0x00007f49bca77000)
    libdrm.so.2 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdrm.so.2 (0x00007f49bc866000)
    libgbm.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgbm.so.1 (0x00007f49bc657000)
    libgudev-1.0.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgudev-1.0.so.0 (0x00007f49bc44d000)
    libgssapi_krb5.so.2 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libgssapi_krb5.so.2 (0x00007f49bc202000)
    libdbus-1.so.3 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdbus-1.so.3 (0x00007f49bbfb5000)
    libatspi.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libatspi.so.0 (0x00007f49bbd85000)
    libbsd.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libbsd.so.0 (0x00007f49bbb70000)
    libdatrie.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libdatrie.so.1 (0x00007f49bb969000)
    libblkid.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libblkid.so.1 (0x00007f49bb71c000)
    libbrotlicommon.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libbrotlicommon.so.1 (0x00007f49bb4fc000)
    libudev.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libudev.so.1 (0x00007f49bb2de000)
    libkrb5.so.3 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libkrb5.so.3 (0x00007f49bb008000)
    libk5crypto.so.3 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libk5crypto.so.3 (0x00007f49badd6000)
    libcom_err.so.2 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libcom_err.so.2 (0x00007f49babd2000)
    libkrb5support.so.0 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libkrb5support.so.0 (0x00007f49ba9c7000)
    libsystemd.so.0 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libsystemd.so.0 (0x00007f49ba743000)
    libuuid.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libuuid.so.1 (0x00007f49ba53c000)
    libkeyutils.so.1 => /lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libkeyutils.so.1 (0x00007f49ba338000)
    liblz4.so.1 => /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/liblz4.so.1 (0x00007f49ba11c000)

[Harvey Stuart]

Try from command line running like this:

Code:

LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/opt/Mixbus-6.0.697/lib/ /opt/Mixbus-6.0.697/lib/ardour-vst-scanner ~/.vst/Tunefish4.so

That might give you some error message which tells reason

Funnily enough these twonky tests might give an idea about a track for a clue:

The "standard" tests sighs:

Code:

$:/usr/lib/vst>:
  LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/opt/Mixbus-6.1.22/lib /opt/Mixbus-6.1.22/lib/ardour-vst-scanner -f ./Tunefish4.so
[ERROR]: Could not open existing LXVST plugin: /usr/lib/libatk-bridge-2.0.so.0: undefined symbol: atk_component_scroll_to_point
[WARNING]: Cannot get LinuxVST information from './Tunefish4.so': load failed.

while this gives:

Code:

$:/usr/lib/vst>:
LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/usr/lib/ardour6 /opt/Mixbus-6.1.22/lib/ardour-vst-scanner -f ./Tunefish4.so
JUCE v5.3.0

And, for completion sake, I'll add that Tunefish4 works fine in Ardour6 but is of course unseen in Mixbus (5 or 6) on my installation since it's blacklisted as the upper seen test could tell:

Code:

cat ~/.cache/mixbus6/vst64_blacklist.txt
/usr/lib/vst/lsp-plugins-lxvst-1.1.22/lsp-plugins-vst-core-.so
/usr/lib/vst/lsp-plugins-lxvst-1.1.22/lsp-plugins-r3d-glx.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/libcarla_native-plugin.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/libcarla_interposer-safe.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/libcarla_utils.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/carla-bridge-lv2.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/libcarla_interposer-jack-x11.so
/usr/lib/carla/styles/carlastyle.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/libcarla_interposer-x11.so
/usr/lib/vst/Tunefish4.so

Hope it may help somehow.

[phil]

Hello Harvey Stuart

I don't understand the difference between your two similar cmds. I got this:.

Code:

phil@phils-pc:~/.vst$ LD_LIBRARY_PATH=/opt/Mixbus-6.1.22/lib /opt/Mixbus-6.1.22/lib/ardour-vst-scanner -f ./Tunefish4.so
[ERROR]: Could not open existing LXVST plugin: /usr/lib/x86_64-linux-gnu/libwebkit2gtk-4.0.so.37: undefined symbol: g_output_stream_write_all_async

Code:

phil@phils-pc:~/.vst$ cat ~/.cache/mixbus6/vst64_blacklist.txt
/home/phil/.vst/Tunefish4.so
/usr/lib/carla/styles/carlastyle.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/carla-bridge-lv2.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/libcarla_interposer-jack-x11.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/libcarla_interposer-safe.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/libcarla_utils.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/libcarla_interposer-x11.so
/usr/lib/vst/carla.vst/libcarla_native-plugin.so
./Tunefish4.so

Presumablyy Mixbus is putting Tunefish on the blacklist because of the error.. Is that right? It does leave me wondering what magic is madmaxmiller conjuring to overcome this? Unless there is an naswer for that I guess that's it. No big deal, it was just a synth to try. I can live without it. At least I understand a little more about plugins. Thanks everyone for the help

[madmaxmiller]

madmaxmiller, I put it in /usr/lib/vst/ , cleared vst cache and rescanned but no change. In Carla I refeshed the plugin list with a scan for all formats (whilst Tunefish4.so was in both vst directories) but "Tunefish" was not visible in Carla plugin list.

So this gives us the hint that it's not necessarily a Mixbus problem. You probably won't see it in Ardour or LMMS either.
I did the same on my office-computer, this one runs Mint (the studio is Ubuntu Studio 20.04 LTS). Copied the tunefish4.so into ~/.vst, then re-scanned plugins and done. I didn't even clear cash or blacklist.
Then I did the same on my laptop, running Debian Stretch and Mixbus 5: same thing, it just worked.
   
Something in your system... maybe it's a good time and reason to upgrade.

MMM

P.S.: stupid question: are you running a 64 bit system with a 64 bit Mixbus and try the 64 bit Tunefish? Just asking for a friend...