Mixbus as a composition tool : MIDI loops

[Frank]

Now these keyboards are they pure midi
or are they midi over USB?

What ? You are still using actual MIDI cables ??

Sure !! Deutsches Institut für Normung connectors. Not very stage proof. Step on it once and ..
I made DIN to XLR adapters, so cable length is not a problem.
A clear MIDI stream.
and MIDI equipment is not self updating. They do not grow USB interfaces by itself.
and once you get the concept of channels : they are rather versatile

and I do not want to make (legacy?) midi equipment obsolete..
say goodbye to my K2000, SY99, Vl70, PC88? etc

I do not own or use Bitwig But the procedure which was described before, that Bitwig detects keyboard automagically, will it detect plain Midi keyboards? Keyboards from a midi controller ?

It's actually not magic. A USB device has an ID. Any software can query this ID and see if it knows about it. If it knows about it, it might then a have a config. Think Faderport in Mixbus. Once the Faderport is connected, Mixbus will use the (user-modified) configuration it has about this device.

Same with MIDI keyboards. Because after all, this is MIDI, traditional MIDI cable or not.

Are you sure : I guess that is an assumption from your side, i think you have no real MIDI experience yet (DIN midi)
as far as i know there is no controller information sent with the DIN midi stream.

For simple one to one connections the Bitwig way can be helpfull.
I think for complicated connections, several controllers connecting in layers , it will be in the way,
One has to toggle between manual and automatic mode.

I would prefer the simple Mixbus traditional manual mode.

The Jonetsu described the way Bitwig interacts with keyboards would make me crazy. I think. I have no standard way to connect: a keyboard can connect to several tracks at once, Or a track at the time.

Exactly. Click on the REC button of a track and the keyboard will work with that track. Ctrl-click on several tracks on the keyboard will layer several synths at once. This said, Bitwig also offers specific per-track options. Like use my Prokeys88 for that track. Use my Launchpad for that other track. All devices go by names since Bitwig works with actual device names.

But it would not cope with changing device over the same anonymous stream

Prefer to determine at each time how it connects, which channel goes where. Most of the time the plugin determines what it does with the input.

I also do not want to end up playing a growling hip hop bass when I want a mellow cello. And I want this selection to be transparent as possible, easy-flowing, and ready to go on 35 tracks right after the computer has started and an existing DAW session opened.

On the other hand, a Bach piece with a growling hip hop bass ....

Cheers.

For complicated issues, which i need life change of parameters , i Use Bidule many times.
I think than of many sounds from a single controller, key and velocity changed.
Other issues i control at the instrument level, like an ensemble in Reaktor, or VIP or Analogue lab.

I get the idea you solve those by adding tracks.

I do not feel the Bitwig method for midi is a solution for Mixbus

regards

frank

[madmaxmiller]

I do not feel the Bitwig method for midi is a solution for Mixbus

A LUA script could wait for the record button or track active event and connect the current keyboard with the respective channel.

MMM

[Frank]

I do not feel the Bitwig method for midi is a solution for Mixbus

A LUA script could wait for the record button or track active event and connect the current keyboard with the respective channel.

MMM

True, I have been thinking in that direction of simplifying live setups with Lua scripts.

I think that is the way to go. Call a lua script from a midi program change.

regards

Frank

[jonetsu]

and MIDI equipment is not self updating. They do not grow USB interfaces by itself. and once you get the concept of channels : they are rather versatile and I do not want to make (legacy?) midi equipment obsolete.. say goodbye to my K2000, SY99, Vl70, PC88? etc

Yes, for vintage hardware, it's needed.

Are you sure : I guess that is an assumption from your side, i think you have no real MIDI experience yet (DIN midi)
as far as i know there is no controller information sent with the DIN midi stream.

No information, exactly. and with USB, there is. So it is possible to easily know that a Faderport is connected. Or an Axiom 25, and load automagically the appropriate configuration without making the mistake of confusing one for the other.

Electrical considerations aside, this is quite an improvement over legacy DIN MIDI.

My experience with DIN MIDI ? Hmmm... let me see. Let's just say that as a project I built years ago a MIDI drum pad controller in wire-wrap based on a 8086 CPU. 8259, 8250, programmable EEPROM (which was neat), etc. Let's just say that.

For simple one to one connections the Bitwig way can be helpfull. I think for complicated connections, several controllers connecting in layers , it will be in the way,

I do not know what complicated connections can be regarding Bitwig. Maybe that's the missing part. If your USB hub got it, Bitwig has it. So if your USB has 10 keyboards for ten players, then Bitwig recognizes and remembers all of them automagically.

What is complex for you ? Would it stem rather from the fact that anonymous MIDI is used ?

But it would not cope with changing device over the same anonymous stream

Maybe because it signifies the end of anonymity ? No longer anonymous. The Axiom 25 is recognized as such. The KORG Microstation is also. The user can use names. I want my KORG to play that synth, my Axiom that other one, etc..

Prefer to determine at each time how it connects, which channel goes where. Most of the time the plugin determines what it does with the input.

Not me. I start the session, I want to do music across all synths as the piece spontaneously goes, now. Do not want to spend time as a public servant with papperwork so to speak, do not want to spend time connecting 35 synths, spending time finding out which one will playing from the previous saved session, don't want to spend time looking at grids clicking 35 times to make connections.

Want to do music.

For complicated issues, which i need life change of parameters , i Use Bidule many times.

Just looking at the Bidule screen examples from Plogue and I shiver. Already I manage to always stay away from qjackctl... Brrrr. Connecting this and that, all those wires, and I use to do wire-wrap to build CPU systems.

I get the idea you solve those by adding tracks.

Adding tracks is rarely a solution. It exacerbates a problem rather. OTOH, these are still unstable times as I learn new synths and have to run some in Mixbus for exploring/learning. I haven't yet went back to creating music per se. Only tried of few synths here and there.

One possibility could be to use mock-ups in Bitwig. Eg. a pad sound which is not the final pad sound, using a u-he synth. Thus the flow of the creation would be largely preserved. Then the tracks (or a mix) can be exported to Mixbus along with the MIDI tracks that contains data for the new synths, and then those new sounds would be added in Mixbus based on existing track data, or complete new tracks. Then the new tracks bounced to audio and exported to the original session in Bitwig to continue creation. I think this overhead is not that bad. Now if in between it's also possible to use those synths directly in Bitwig taking care to handle them well, then even better.

Cheers.

---

A LUA script could wait for the record button or track active event and connect the current keyboard with the respective channel.

How much CPU would doing that for 35 tracks use ? Or is it possible for a Lua script to subscribe, much like to the popular inotify() in Linux to get called back when interesting events happens ?

Cheers.

---

Now there is such a connection grid for MIDI:

   

Is there one for the tracks' IN/DISK ?

[Frank]

Jonetsu

sorry to say so, but you lack a bit of compassion, or imagination regarding the midi issue.

You see the midi connection from rather primitive point of view.
You have you lets say Axiom, you plug it in : the software (Bitwig) say ehh an Axiom, and it connects it to the recording track. Since it is a keyboard, it creates a note on, till you remove your fingers. Note off
One to one, what is the problem?

For me a Din midi cable contains 16 channels of of midi info : Note on: 8 octaves, 8 velocity groups, CC information during note on, and maybe a note off.

So one note played can trigger up to 16 instruments, depending on the pitch played and the velocity and the duration of the note.

as an example the first octave is used for start of a sequence (at note on, no note off, same note on again stops the sequence.)
Second octave transposed up one octave, third octave different sound same pitch
fourth octave starts with wind noise, real note on is delayed etc etc.

Can be pre-processed with Bidule, post processed in a Reaktor ensemble, what ever it needs. Bidule can handle that too.

And yes , there is a connection grid after in/disk

=-=-
some other points we differ too:
Qjackcontrol makes me happy !
I never tempted to use wine, or linvst. I use the plugins in the environment they are designed for.
Too much of a gamble and one cannot expect designers to support this.
When instrument support in Mixbus was primitive, to me it did not matter so much, use them in standalone mode, or a compatible host. Jack was my friend.as is its cousin netjack.

=-=-
so an Bitwig style automated connection would be a pain for me.
a set of Lua scripts a blessing

In the old days my Kurzweil was a blessing. Connecting , reconnecting at a program chang!

=====

One question : just wondering, how do you end up with 45 tracks ?

regards

[jonetsu]

One question : just wondering, how do you end up with 45 tracks ?

I do not think I mentioned 45 in this thread. I certainly mentioned 35 though. Just as illustration.

So let's take "Spring Theme", which you can find in the "Made with Mixbus" section, of course. If you haven't heard it yet, now is a good time.

At the creation level there are 29 tracks, of which 21 are synths, 6 drums/percussions, 1 guitar which is a placeholder for development purposes since it was re=recorded altogether in Mixbus32C.

   

At the mixing level there are 46 tracks, including busses and mixbusses, but excluding automation tracks:

   
   

There is multing taking place with some tracks. Busses are added for FXs. Some mixbusses are of course used. Some VCAs.

Pretty straight forward business when you consider commercial mixes which runs into a much higher track count.

Why were you asking ?

Cheers.

[Frank]

There is multing taking place with some tracks. Busses are added for FXs. Some mixbusses are of course used. Some VCAs.

Pretty straight forward business when you consider commercial mixes which runs into a much higher track count.

Why were you asking ?

Cheers.

Curiosity mainly.
I do not seem to reach that level.
when i look at my last recordings I have one or two stereo tracks @ player.

Last weekend i had Vocal, keys (two ) stereo tracks , wind , and drums.

I am minimalistic about drums: one stereo XY Mike properly positioned. Acoustic drummers love it. We take care of the tuning of the skins. sometimes i dd something in the kick : more because drummers like it. I use a mike which others will shout: that one is for the overheads.
an AKG 451 or so. Lots of depth , if the kick has it,
I always feel , the more mikes you add, the mushier it becomes.
Drummers love the stereo image, and the control they have over he balance, and they do not have to surrender to the whims of the guy behind the glass.

Keys i keep the tracks acooding to the function. I have a melody track: which can contain different synth for instance. Gues it comes from the hardware synths: one stereo audio track, and a programs change created a new instrument.
In general i tend to be clear , minimalistic: what you use no EQ a fellow engineer explaimed when he saw my desk.

=-=-

You use buses for FX ?

I do things like in channel parallel processing.

Just nice to exchange ideaś

regards

[jonetsu]

Curiosity mainly. I do not seem to reach that level. when i look at my last recordings I have one or two stereo tracks @ player.

Don't you think this is not a question of level ?

Someone who experiences deep feelings simply by improvised singing in a field while working on a farm could say to you: I never reach your level

You seem to be comparing apples and oranges. I basically play acoustic guitar. So that's two tracks if I want to keep it as natural as possible. Heck, one track would be OK. Done.

And this would be all right. But I do a bit more. I add colors, many percussions, there can be many melodies, or none. I have done pieces with basically only one piano. You maybe have not listen to what I do, here's one with not many tracks at all:

Off The Grid 2

It's a sketch, with timings, mixing and all that. but once fixed, the idea when completed will be much of the same.

Which makes me think, have you ever posted any of your recordings here in the "Made with Mixbus" section ?

Keys i keep the tracks acooding to the function. I have a melody track: which can contain different synth for instance. Gues it comes from the hardware synths: one stereo audio track, and a programs change created a new instrument.

Yes but you keep the same synth. For instance if you have Waverazor on that track, then you wouldn't really be able to come up with a sound that's like a flute or a trombone. Or perhaps you could, in two months of fiddling with the synth. But that's another matter. Same with a hardware synth.

I can automate program changes anytime in Bitwig, but I don't use them much. OTOH I use Instrument Selectors that can be saved as instruments on their own. Such an instrument can contains for example 4 synths with variations on the same patch. One patch sharp, the other more legato, the other sustained, the pizzicato. Then I play the Selector in real time on a pre-recorded track using drum pads to switch from one articulation to the other as notes are played. Each synth process is suspended by Bitwig when not in use. I save that combination of instruments as my FretlessBass 1 and can recall it anytime for any other session.

I can have 50 or more of such multi-articulated (or any other variation) instruments. No need to have a 16 limit as program change, no need to load/maintain programs in synths for years as a session is played back. Just load the multi-articulated instrument and its ready to go with all its expressions.

Just nice to exchange ideaś

Yes but the context is very important. The need of a folksinger, one voice one guitar, will usually never be the same as an orchestra.

It's totally pointless to compare that as "levels" I find.

Cheers.

[Frank]

Curiosity mainly. I do not seem to reach that level. when i look at my last recordings I have one or two stereo tracks @ player. [/quote]

I was referring to the amount of tracks..



Regards

[jonetsu]

I was referring to the amount of tracks..

Obviously. Have you ever mixed anything with more than 20 tracks ? With more than 35 tracks ?

Cheers.