[split] Dante and Audio Networking

[jabney]

The bad news:

it looks like the HP zX20 (z420, z620, z820, etc) is the oldest series to be given a repaired BIOS from HP. So a z400 or a z600 or an xw4600 will be left out - so far.

The 'who-knows' news:

some rumored class lawsuits might budge Intel (and thus HP and others) to go back one generation (to z400s and z600s and z800s, etc) or to go back two generations (xw4600s etc) or three generations (I think it's xw4400 etc) for microcode updates.

The good news:

you can still run most computers without the internet. Software is a different situation. For example, Audinate Dante VIA requires an internet connection every now and then to keep running. (Most of the other Audinate Dante products require hardwired networks and I can't find much easy-to-digest information yet about Meltdown and Spectre and networks. If it turns out badly, though, adding more old computers to a Dante network costs as little $30 per computer (plus some more CAT5e or CAT6).)

---

The bad news:

it looks like the HP zX20 (z420, z620, z820, etc) is the oldest series to be given a repaired BIOS from HP. So a z400 or a z600 or an xw4600 will be left out - so far.

The 'who-knows' news:

some rumored class lawsuits might budge Intel (and thus HP and others) to go back one generation (to z400s and z600s and z800s, etc) or to go back two generations (xw4600s etc) or three generations (I think it's xw4400 etc) for microcode updates.

The good news:

you can still run most computers without the internet. Software is a different situation. For example, Audinate Dante VIA requires an internet connection every now and then to keep running. (Most of the other Audinate Dante products require hardwired networks and I can't find much easy-to-digest information yet about Meltdown and Spectre and networks. If it turns out badly, though, adding more old computers to a Dante network costs as little $30 per computer (plus some more CAT5e or CAT6).)

If you ude them for audio only, and setup a proper firewall, which allows only wanted connections there will be no problem

Curious about the Dante

regerds

frank

---

Curious about the Dante

My last conversation with Audinate (3 years old or so): Dante Virtual Soundcard firmly does not support Linux. Didn't bother to check since.

MMM

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Try this...
http://www.four-audio.com/en/products/da...-card.html

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Try this...
http://www.four-audio.com/en/products/da...-card.html

Thanks Dingo,

I knew this one. However, I beta-tested the Virtual Sound Card (on Windows) and this would be an easy way to outsource DSP power as Frank and I plan with Jack over the net - just using the existing or a dedicated ethernet card.
https://www.audinate.com/products/softwa...controller

Oh well, let's stay with free (as in freedom) software then

MMM

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@ Dingo

is it an idea to make a split into a dante thread?

Regards

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@ Dingo

is it an idea to make a split into a dante thread?

Regards

As the writer of the original "A Video About 'Meltdown' for Older Xeons," I think a dante thread would be great. Maybe a one-word or two-word title? :-)

There is not an official Audinate Dante forum. At least not for musicians. So finding information about Dante is something of a quest. But it's there.

Once Audinate gets the https://investor.audinate.com link back, the "Risks (p81 to p89)" section tells a lot. I found the link yesterday and the 'Risks' chapter said nothing about "Meltdown" and "Spectre." Then today I went to that site and got: "System Unavailable." (Editing the 'Risks' chapter, perhaps?")

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@ Dingo

is it an idea to make a split into a dante thread?

Regards

As the writer of the original "A Video About 'Meltdown' for Older Xeons," I think a dante thread would be great. Maybe a one-word or two-word title? :-)

There is not an official Audinate Dante forum. At least not for musicians. So finding information about Dante is something of a quest. But it's there.

Once Audinate gets the https://investor.audinate.com link back, the "Risks (p81 to p89)" section tells a lot. I found the link yesterday and the 'Risks' chapter said nothing about "Meltdown" and "Spectre." Then today I went to that site and got: "System Unavailable." (Editing the 'Risks' chapter, perhaps?")

Maybe Jabney
you can make a new start of Dante : and combine the information collected in this thread up til now ?

as i assume you are already a Dante user you could give an intro

I would appreciate it

Regards

Frank

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@ Dingo

is it an idea to make a split into a dante thread?

Regards

As the writer of the original "A Video About 'Meltdown' for Older Xeons," I think a dante thread would be great. Maybe a one-word or two-word title? :-)

I'm done with Dante
Regarding Meltdown: I'm done with this, too. Nothing is eaten as hot as it's cooked. Time will tell.

MMM

[Dingo]

Sorry split the Thread but stuffed up, will get Ben to fix... Cheers

[jabney]

Looks like the thread has been split. And we need a Dante introduction to Audinate Dante. I've been drafted, I suppose:

as i assume you are already a Dante user you could give an intro

I would appreciate it

Frank, I hope you still appreciate it after I finish :-)

Dante Alighieri is an Italian poet from the middle ages; Audinate Dante is not an Italian poet. When you begin to search for just "Dante" on-line, you will first find links to the poet. You can refine your search by including "Audinate" with "Dante" but before you do, consider the two names of poet Dante's famous subjects: "Hell" and "Paradise."

...
Definitions that might be useful on this thread:

Dante - here - means Audinate Dante.

Network - here - means a Network that hosts a Dante System.

Working Dante Network - here - means a Dante System that passes a glitch-free signal to at least one device.

...

Next: Dante and the Hardware

[Frank]

Looks like the thread has been split. And we need a Dante introduction to Audinate Dante. I've been drafted, I suppose:

as i assume you are already a Dante user you could give an intro

I would appreciate it

Frank, I hope you still appreciate it after I finish :-)

Dante Alighieri is an Italian poet from the middle ages; Audinate Dante is not an Italian poet. When you begin to search for just "Dante" on-line, you will first find links to the poet. You can refine your search by including "Audinate" with "Dante" but before you do, consider the two names of poet Dante's famous subjects: "Hell" and "Paradise."

...
Definitions that might be useful on this thread:

Dante - here - means Audinate Dante.

Network - here - means a Network that hosts a Dante System.

Working Dante Network - here - means a Dante System that passes a glitch-free signal to at least one device.

...

Next: Dante and the Hardware

All fine Dante as in the Dead philosopher is part of my culture: no confusion about that.

Definitions that might be useful on this thread:

Dante - here - means Audinate Dante. Fine

Network - here - means a Network that hosts a Dante System.

I would like to be more specific:

1. Network : a tcp/ip 1GB twisted pair network
   
2. Dnetwork : a Network running Dante
   
3. Network: a TCP network running Dante and other TCP/IP traffic
   

Working Dante Network - here - means a Dante System that passes a glitch-free signal to at least one device.

Working Dante Network - here - means a Dante System that passes a glitch-free signal between at least two devices.
Fair ?

regards

---

I'm done with Dante
Regarding Meltdown: I'm done with this, too. Nothing is eaten as hot as it's cooked. Time will tell.

MMM


Just Ignore

he suffers a severe stroke of heatwave

he loves to hear all about both

regards
frank

[Matt]

I’m not a Dante via user, but have been using Dante for several years now. It’s been rock solid. And from what I’ve read on the Allen and heath forums, it’s a bad idea to mix internet and Dante. It can be done if you’re good with IT stuff. But generally easier to keep them separated. So as the entire Dante is normally not connected to the internet the security should be fine.

[Frank]

I’m not a Dante via user, but have been using Dante for several years now. It’s been rock solid. And from what I’ve read on the Allen and heath forums, it’s a bad idea to mix internet and Dante. It can be done if you’re good with IT stuff. But generally easier to keep them separated. So as the entire Dante is normally not connected to the internet the security should be fine.

Yeah

we should separate the network from the Internet

regards

[jabney]

Working Dante Network - here - means a Dante System that passes a glitch-free signal between at least two devices.
Fair ?

Thanks Frank,

I agree that the definition needs some work. Maybe three definitions: "Working" and some set of terms that don't use the words: 'lite' and 'duplex' - if possible :-)

best, john

[jabney]

Rule #1: Dante is a wire.

Rule #2: If your computer can run Mixbus, then your computer can run Dante.

Well, maybe.

...

The above, Rule #1 and Rule #2, are over-simplifications.

As the subject continues, expect more over-simplifications. Can't avoid it. Creators have a choice: leave out some details along the way, or expect the users to become the 'master of the manual.' When we talk about Dante (or Mixbus,) we sometimes have to use over-simplifications.

Dante and Mixbus have something else in common: both need modern and fast hardware.

'Modern' and 'Fast' are vague terms, of course. But deciding what hardware is too old or too slow can surprise you. A perfectly-tuned computer from the past may do better than a new computer stuffed with bloat-ware.

My experience lately has been good, running Mixbus on Windows 10 with Dante. (It wasn't always so good in the past.) Two things helped - both were hardware.

The hardware item from me was changing drive F: from a single drive (F:) to a RAID2T (F:). Two physical drives that act as a single drive.

Here is a comparison of RAID2T for F:
Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 260.913 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 232.068 MB/s
...and single hard drive C:
Sequential Read (Q= 32,T= 1) : 131.186 MB/s
Sequential Write (Q= 32,T= 1) : 128.458 MB/s
(All three drives are the same type - WD 'enterprise' series; this time running Windows 8.1.)

The new hardware items came from the venue - adding another Dante Brooklyn II card in an Ashly digiMIX24.

...

So what does Dante do? As I mentioned at the beginning of the post, Dante is a wire.

Dante acts as a simple wire; because it is a simple wire. You also need some relatively expensive circuitry running some code on a small board at one or more ends of a piece of CAT5e or a piece of CAT6.

Is Dante audio-neutral? I myself have not heard any audio coloration from Dante.

next: more Dante and the Hardware

[jabney]

Rule #3 - Dante needs at least one Card.

Brooklyn II is a Dante card.

(Calling Brooklyn II a card is over-simplification - but it is useful over-simplification at this point.)

...

The Audinate (i.e. Dante) site says:

A single Brooklyn II module provides a complete, ready-to-use Dante interface, and can equip a networked audio device with as many as 64 channels of bi-directional digital streaming.

As far as, "...complete, ready-to-use...," well, it is correct - but only for direct buyers.

Direct buyers can buy this:

which is actually this:

Dante Hardware

Four Dante Brooklyn II modules with support for 64 x 64 audio channels
Two Brooklyn II Adaptor boards with breakout headers to access the rich set of Brooklyn II development interfaces
Two Audio baseboards allowing connection to audio equipment via a range of connectors

... and a PDK (and more). You probably don't need that.

Besides, you are not a direct buyer.

Audinate Dante hardware goes through this path:

• Audinate Dante to...
  
• An audio equipment manufacturer to...
  
• A vendor to...
  
• Your boss to...
  
• You!
  

What you could buy is something like this from Yamaha:

or this from Focusrite:


Those two are the only PCI Express (Peripheral Component Interconnect Express) - i.e. PCIe Dante Cards at this time. Each of the two has two RJ45 jacks.

If you go to Audinate's site, you will find other types of cards; like this Dante card from Allen & Heath:

Instead of two RJ45 jacks, it has three RJ45 jacks. But only two jacks are usable as Dante network jacks for passing a signal. Also, there is no PCIe connector. Instead, suitable A&H devices have a port that accepts an A&H Dante card.

Similarly, Ashly has its own take on Dante:

which has its own card:

Again, no PCIe connection.

All the above Dante cards can be connected to a piece of CAT5e or a CAT6 at one end. And while all have Brooklyn II modules, the number of channels differ. For example, the last device (the Ashly) limits its Brooklyn II module to 32 channels. While the Focusrite Brooklyn II PCIe and the Yamaha Brooklyn II PCIe cards can go up to 128 channels - if the hosting computer's PCIe slot is capable.

Each of the Brooklyn II cards above can connect to other Brooklyn II cards of the same name or to other Brooklyn II cards of different names or do both. In fact, all of the Brooklyn II cards above could be plugged into one network switch at the same time and simply connect. Eventually.

next: Brooklyn II is More Than Cards

[jabney]

Rule #4 - Dante itself has no pre-amps.

Therefore, Dante has no pre-amp sound-coloration.
...
(The above is not changing - even though Audinate Dante just announced their AVIO series. Each model from Audinate itself still needs external microphone pre-amps.)
...
Rule #5 - Dante analogue circuits have sound-coloration.

That's because all analogue circuits have sound-coloration. Can't get around it.
...
(Currently Dante already offers a pair of RCA pre-amps, but - it's on the Brooklyn II developer's tool (see up-thread) and - most of us won't be allowed to buy it. Besides, I don't think it is meant for microphones.)
...

Why the all-text links below? We like pictures!

Everybody likes pictures, don't they? Well, not everybody. RAM is expensive these days. And a big .jpeg is slower to display than a link - of almost any size. For me, the main reason for links instead of .jpegs is because most of the devices in this particular post (#10) make you download full pages with lots of words around the pictures. This thread is not a catalog. For that, you can go to Audinate and find Products > Product Catalog with several hundred devices. Where not all are cool to look at, but all are expensive - until you remember what each device replaces.

And before you read on, remember, none of us really need any more gear, do we? Because, some of the pieces following look very tempting. Also - unlike some of the devices in the last posting - looking at the items here is all I've done - so far.

Except for the next item:

Here is one device that I have plugged into - it's a patch bay:
https://www.audinate.com/sites/default/f...k=RbcRGJ4f
...and 48 Allen & Heath mic pre-amps (XLRs)
...and 16 line outs (XLRs)
...and a place to plug in a pair of headphones
...and a MIDI In and Out (we've not used that)
...and 5 places to plug in a CAT5e cable that are NOT Dante
...and a port that accepts the Allen & Heath Dante 'card' that is shown in Post #9.

The iDR48 comes from Allen & Heath, and they've discontinued that particular model. It's been replaced, though. And the two series can work together - if...

...
IF means: IF two Dante hardware devices share the same frequency, they can understand each other. So for example, if two Dante hardware devices each run at 48k (that's the frequency, and I think every single Dante device in the world can run at 48k), then that's probably OK - even if the devices come from different manufacturers. (More of that: in future thread postings.)
...

With that in mind, here is a rack of older pre-amps from Focusrite:
https://www.audinate.com/sites/default/f...update.jpg
Note that it is a 2u 19" unit with 8 XLR Focusrite microphone pre-amps, and a DB25 for analogue inputs, and one ethernet port to send a Dante signal to the Dante network. The front panel has two 1/4" ports (that shadow the #1 and #2 analogue positions connected to the DB25 on the back), and buttons (and a knob) that control the various inputs - one at a time.

And here a newer rack of pre-amps from Focusrite:
https://pro.focusrite.com/category/audio...ednet-mp8r
The mp8r is a 1u 19" unit with 8 XLR Focusrite microphone pre-amps, two ethernet ports to send one Dante signal to the Dante network, and buttons (and a knob) that control the various inputs - one at a time.

And yes, I could have pasted an audinate link instead of the focusrite link, but if you are interested enough, you'll wind up at the Focusrite link anyhow. Also, I featured two Focusrite pre-amp racks - one after the other - because they demonstrate some points.

Here is an anecdote to illustrate those points: I once found a Focusrite RedNet4 on eBay where Clair Bros. was selling some 2u 19" (2 rack high x 19" wide) pieces, because they were going to 1u 19" (1 rack high X 19" wide) pieces. The RedNet4s looked in great condition, and the RedNet4 has 8 analogue line inputs as well as the 8 Focusrite mic' pre-amps. However, they are 2u high, and they only have one ethernet port; while the Focusrite mp8r takes half the space (it's only 1u high) and it has redundant ethernet ports to send the same Dante signal. For me, the used RedNet4 would be preferable to the new mp8r - the extra analogue lines would be useful to me. But I'm not working for Clair Brothers. If I were working for Clair Brothers, I would choose Focusrite mp8r over Focusrite RedNet4.

What about the sound of those two Focusrite pre-amps? No idea. Once you get to a certain level of sound quality these days, it's hard to make a really bad choice.

If you don't need any more microphone pre-amps, how about 64 inputs and 64 outputs (actually Dante handles 32 I/O for 1u but you can double to 2u for Dante by buying another and there's something about MADI and it's said to be something of a bargain and it was designed by one of the creators for the Creamware's 16 I/O and it probably reads better in the original German and did I mention it has a lot of I/O and...) it's 1u high and 19" rack unit. This comes from Ferrofish https://www.audinate.com/products/dante-...-a32-dante and it handles MADI and ADAT as well as the anologue I/Os.

There is even a 1u rack clock with its own Brooklyn II to run your Dante Brooklyn II device which has its own clock. https://www.audinate.com/products/dante-...ster-clock

So you might think that the Brooklyn II is the king of Dante world. Well... When you check out Audinate's 'Dante-enabled' pages (21 pages - as of now), you will find that there are many many devices that don't need the range of a Brooklyn II. Nevertheless, the manufacturer may still want the power of Dante. So perhaps they use a smaller Dante module. But which smaller Dante module? Sometimes, you need that information to answer a question or decide if you should buy.

Next - Identifying a Dante Module - When the Manufacturer Doesn't Tell You