Hardware recommendations?

[ethanay]

Heya folks,

So I am in-between hardware right now. My old computer was a 2008 Dell XPS m1330 laptop, which is now 12 years old and, understandably, on its last legs. It has served me well and lived a long, full life on several continents. time to say goodbye.

I am out of touch with options that are available. Not sure I want/need to go with another laptop, modern laptops seem like a minefield regarding both Linux compatibility (unless specifically designed for Linux, of which there are few and far between) and also low latency performance. EG apparently the latest version of the Dell XPS series has horrible low latency performance, whereas my old computer was very solid down to around 3-4ms or so (I think I was reliably using a buffer size of 64 samples, IIRC, through firewire on 64studio).

This computer will be used primarily for music production, photo editing/post production and writing/editing.

I have a few questions, wondering if anyone can shed some light on it:

I am thinking of building my own compact desktop system from scratch, I heard that generally gamer's hardware works best for audio computer builds. Is this true?

Are there any companies or hardware I should look at more closely or stay away from based on performance or Linux compatibility?

Any inter-component compatibility issues I should be aware of?

General resources to look at when considering a build or choosing a pre-built model? (I am familiar with the mechanics of setting up Linux for low latency work, so this isn't meant to point me toward, e.g., the linux audio wiki, etc, which are great resources but not relevant to this particular discussion)

Has anyone found a Linux setup in a modern laptop that allows for decent low latency performance without completely thrashing battery life when not specifically doing demanding audio production work on it?

The only reason I can think of for getting another laptop is for the possibility of using it to record "on-location" but I tend to use dedicated hardware setups for that purpose. Reasons I can think of for steering away from a laptop toward a desktop build:
1. Better performance per component cost, both in terms of specs and real-world performance (e.g., more effective cooling)
2. Better ergonomics with discrete components
3. Easier/fuller/more reliable linux compatibility
4. More options / choices in companies or components for complete or custom builds

Any input or clarity you can offer on this topic is greatly appreciated.

Hope you are all doing OK. If a poorly managed pandemic isn't enough, armed paramilitary forces wearing no insignia, with no badge numbers or names, and accountable to nobody, kidnapping people in the streets here...

ethan

PS Once I get another working computer setup I plan on participating more fully and regularly in this wonderful forum community as I learn the DAW.

[madmaxmiller]

In my experience problems with Laptops under Linux are rather a problem of the past...
As for a desktop: don't overthink this! For normal recording/editing/mixing work a 4-core i5 with no HT, 16 GB RAM and two SATA-SSDs will serve you well. The built-in Intel graphics does the job just fine, add a class compliant USB interface and Bob's your uncle!
Look at my specs in the signature - that PC is now 5 years old and wasn't top-notch when I put it thogether then - it's quiet (with a monster-tower-CPU cooler and slow 140mm fan) and does the job even with multiple (20) linuxsampler instruments. Plus I can barely hear it even when everything else is off.

MMM

[Theotherguy]

In my experience problems with Laptops under Linux are rather a problem of the past...
As for a desktop: don't overthink this! For normal recording/editing/mixing work a 4-core i5 with no HT, 16 GB RAM and two SATA-SSDs will serve you well. The built-in Intel graphics does the job just fine, add a class compliant USB interface and Bob's your uncle!
Look at my specs in the signature - that PC is now 5 years old and wasn't top-notch when I put it thogether then - it's quiet (with a monster-tower-CPU cooler and slow 140mm fan) and does the job even with multiple (20) linuxsampler instruments. Plus I can barely hear it even when everything else is off.

MMM

MMM is correct, and saved me wasting money when I asked. My Quad Core i5 8GB RAM, 6 years old, I usually mix 24 tracks max, never a problem. I saved money and got a 43" monitor and a new microphone!

[ethanay]

In my experience problems with Laptops under Linux are rather a problem of the past...
As for a desktop: don't overthink this! For normal recording/editing/mixing work a 4-core i5 with no HT, 16 GB RAM and two SATA-SSDs will serve you well. The built-in Intel graphics does the job just fine, add a class compliant USB interface and Bob's your uncle!
Look at my specs in the signature - that PC is now 5 years old and wasn't top-notch when I put it thogether then - it's quiet (with a monster-tower-CPU cooler and slow 140mm fan) and does the job even with multiple (20) linuxsampler instruments. Plus I can barely hear it even when everything else is off.

MMM

Apart from making sure everything works well together and under Linux, getting something that is quiet, thermally-effective and still somewhat-compact is my main concern (I know I am getting into some engineering dilemmas with the "small form factor" bit).

[quote]
MMM is correct, and saved me wasting money when I asked. My Quad Core i5 8GB RAM, 6 years old, I usually mix 24 tracks max, never a problem. I saved money and got a 43" monitor and a new microphone!

Thanks, this is the sort of feedback I am looking for. Would you recommend building from scratch or do you recommend any specific companies?

I have a budget of about $1500 ($$ I had originally set aside for a replacement laptop), I am looking to put together a computer that will last me ~10+ years, perhaps with a few upgrades along the way as necessary.

I am looking to build a SMFF Linux digital audio workstation computer. It will also double as my home computer, but that functionality is secondary and easy (word processing, spreadsheet, email, some web browsing, photo processing). This computer needs to be both compact and very quiet, with adequate power to run a couple of VIs that already run well on modern laptops (Pianoteq mainly). This is my first desktop build in over 2 decades.

Here is what I am thinking:
CPU: AMD Ryzen 5 3400G 3.7 GHz Quad-Core Processor
This is my value price/performance point, I think. I would love to know how you would build a compact low-noise system.

Case: Thermaltake Versa H18 MicroATX Mini Tower Case
or NZXT H210 Mini-ITX
Memory: G.Skill Ripjaws V Series 32 GB (2 x 16 GB) DDR4-3200 CL16 Memory
OS Storage: 512 GB 2.5" Solid State Drive
/home Storage: 2 TB 2.5" Solid State Drive
Graphics: Integrated only.
Networking: Integrated, if possible, but I am OK installing dedicated Eth/WiFi/BT cards if necessary.

I get tripped up on fans/cooling, motherboards and power supplies. If at all possible, a single USB 2.0 port would be useful (for full compatibility with my USB 2.0 audio interface, as there are sometimes compatibility issues running the 2.0 device on a 3.0 hub in backwards compatibility mode. Low latency performance is finicky.)

Monitor: I may run a dual monitor setup with a smaller secondary monitor underneath a larger 32" monitor.

Wondering if anyone sees any problems with these parts in terms of
a. compatibility with each-other
b. compatibility with Linux
c. airflow
d. noise

Or do you have recommendations for me to go about doing this differently? I just don't want to make an obvious/stupid mistake that I could have avoided by learning from people more experienced, in terms of picking a company/system or selecting parts and doing a build.

My understanding is that hardware designed for "gamers" tends to be a better bet for optimal DAW performance in that, apart for demands on graphics, both applications make similar demands of the hardware. I'm not a gamer, so I don't want to waste a bunch of money on a discrete graphics card that will only suck down additional power and generate additional heat/noise.

[sunrat]

Many questions so I'll just address a few.
That hardware should be fine. Linux is usually a little behind in hardware support so you will need to choose a distro which has a very recent kernel, graphics stack, and firmware. Glen, developer of AVLinux, is working on a MX Linux edition which should be available soon if his posts at MX forum are anything to go by. MX AHS version should work fine too. Whatever distro you choose, scan their forums for users who have similar hardware before you buy.
I'd suggest Mini-ITX rather than micro as cooling should be better. I prefer a mid tower myself.
32GB memory is a lot. I can't recall more than 6GB of my 16GB ever being used. I also prefer a 1TB SSD but then I multiboot Win10 with 4 Linux distros. Music production is a fairly customised Debian Buster with KDE.
Go for overkill on the power supply. I have a 750W Corsair from which I've only seen about 250W max draw but the fan never runs so dead silent.
Lotsa luck with it. I enjoy building computers but my 4 year old one is working sweet so don't need to again for a while. Touch wood!

[keefaz]

Check renewed Dell, Lenovo etc Desktop office type pc in slim case, you could get away with it at less than $300 with nice performances for audio
But yes limited in expension (low profile, not to many port etc)
There are low profile expansion cards though, I know I have a firewire PCI express card low profile compatible: (Syba SD-PEX30009)

Just an idea, eg consider pre built options before make pc from scratch

[madmaxmiller]

Check renewed Dell, Lenovo etc Desktop office type pc in slim case, you could get away with it at less than $300 with nice performances for audio
But yes limited in expension (low profile, not to many port etc)
There are low profile expansion cards though, I know I have a firewire PCI express card low profile compatible: (Syba SD-PEX30009)

Just an idea, eg consider pre built options before make pc from scratch

With prebuilt machines you'll have the chance to check if the components play together nicely before you buy. Realtime capability is paramount.
(btw "realtime' doesn't mean "as fast as possible", it means delivering certain data packages in a determined time)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GUsLLEkswzE

MMM

[PBuryk]

I'm also considering building up a slim profile deskside replacement for my current
Dell Precision laptop - M4800 (Quad i7 w/ 16 GB RAM).
I'm experiencing no issues with this current system; I am simply planning ahead, for
a platform that will provide my needs for the next 10+ years (wishful thinking).
So, basic specs are as follows:
- 32 GB RAM -minimum-, 64 GB realistically. This addresses the mantra: "Keep everything
you can in main memory. Never Swap!"
- (1) NVME M.2 system "disk" (really, an M.2 memory stick. ~ 512 GB). (2) NVME
slots, if possible.
- (2) 1-2TB SSD "app disks" (Samsung EVO "Pro", as available at the time I purchase)
- 3-4 USB 3.0 ports. Since USB 3.0 ports are backward compatible with USB2.0 I
don't need to worry about current audio interface use.
- 1-2 slots for PCIe cards. This will give me options for different multi-input I/O cards,
maybe RMEs - 8-16 channels I/O will be fine for my current (and future) needs.
- PCIe based video card. Whatever works best with my main DAW (currently Mixbus)

You've noticed that I have not specified a CPU. This is because I will go with either
Intel - Quad i7 / i9, latest generation, or AMD Ryzen (more cores!!). Doesn't matter much
to me at this moment because by the time I finally get to commit the money to
purchase (about 6 months, ie., late 2020) processor availability and support will have
changed a dozen times.

- Mother Board - probably an ASUS because they support both Intel and AMD...
AND all the other must haves that I listed above.

- Power Supply - As mentioned, in other responses above, over-spec'd. NEVER marginalize your power
source.
- Case - Whatever is available then that will enclose the above in a serviceable manner.
- Fans - The quietest fans I can get at the time - at least (2) of them.

I do NOT plan to liquid cool the CPU.
I DO plan to use ECC memory, if at all possible.
I will NOT be implementing RAID.
I WILL be loading a Linux based OS - Most likely, AVLinux.
I will NOT be using this platform use (eg, Web Browsing or logging into my bank accounts, etc.).
I WILL be using FileZilla to connect to my tracks exchange repository.
All DAW session backups will be made to USB attached traditional HDDs.
Cooling Fans will be the quietest fans I can find at the time of build.
Entire system will be running on UPS, with 5-10 minute run-time support for CPU and monitors.
(2) 24"-27" Dell (or Samsung) "Ultra" type displays - specifically for Mixbus Editor and Mixer panes.
(1) additional 19-23" Dell Ultra display for various additional panes.
- Track-ball mouse

This will be, primarily, a DAW, although I will also be using it for other off-line
documentation and home/studio management purposes. NO General Purpose Web Browsing.

That's the plan anyway...

Cheers!
Patrick

[ethanay]

My experience with memory usage tends to differ. 8gb seems to be the minimum nowadays, unfortunately. I can't do a filesystem integrity check on a 5tb HDD with 4gb of ram. Runs out of memory. 16gb is standard nowadays, but 32gb while overkill is still cost-effective and would prevent me from having to upgrade for a while. And it's always nice having the headroom, I think!

Thanks for the tips on the hardware! I will go with an overbuilt power supply and a mini ITX case.

If there are any other tips or tricks for making a reliable, quiet system, I would love to hear them!

So it looks like I need to look specifically for a "quiet" mini ITX case, a "quiet" (large fan?) PS, and if the ITX case is fan cooled, then "quiet" (eg., large diameter?) fans? And those would be the largest source of noise? I definitely plan on integrated graphics.

Any opinions on AMD Ryzens vs Intels? I am much more familiar with Intel CPUs but am open to a Ryzen-based system.

keefaz: How do I know which pre-built systems from Dell, Lenovo, etc have nice performance for audio?

---

I'm also considering building up a slim profile deskside replacement for my current
Dell Precision laptop - M4800 (Quad i7 w/ 16 GB RAM).
I'm experiencing no issues with this current system; I am simply planning ahead, for
a platform that will provide my needs for the next 10+ years (wishful thinking).
So, basic specs are as follows:
- 32 GB RAM -minimum-, 64 GB realistically. This addresses the mantra: "Keep everything
you can in main memory. Never Swap!"

I think 32gb will more than suffice for that purpose, especially considering your specialized usage scenario, and even moreso considering a Linux-based OS, which IMO tend to be much less memory hungry than Windows or Mac OS X. and it will be much more cost-effective than 64gb. You can always upgrade later. But I don't see how buying 64gb now is of any benefit to your circumstance.

- (1) NVME M.2 system "disk" (really, an M.2 memory stick. ~ 512 GB). (2) NVME
slots, if possible.
- (2) 1-2TB SSD "app disks" (Samsung EVO "Pro", as available at the time I purchase)
- 3-4 USB 3.0 ports. Since USB 3.0 ports are backward compatible with USB2.0 I
don't need to worry about current audio interface use.

This seems overkill. I don't think you'll notice much any real-world performance increase with NVME vs SATA ssd, and SATA SSD is less expensive and still tons faster than HDD. And likewise, purely for storage, there is nothing wrong with a traditional high capacity HDD, especially for price/storage. For linear access of stored files, it is plenty fast. If it's properly mounted it shouldn't meaningfully contribute to noise during recording, at least not more than the cooling fans.

Also you MIGHT still want at least one USB 2.0 port. While USB 3.0 is supposed to be backwards compatible, apparently some USB 2.0 devices still don't "play well" with USB 3.0. eg https://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/ar...th-USB-3-0-

- 1-2 slots for PCIe cards. This will give me options for different multi-input I/O cards,
maybe RMEs - 8-16 channels I/O will be fine for my current (and future) needs.
- PCIe based video card. Whatever works best with my main DAW (currently Mixbus)

Is there a reason for discrete vs integrated (quieter, cheaper) graphics?

[PBuryk]

My experience with memory usage tends to differ. 8gb seems to be the minimum nowadays, unfortunately. I can't do a filesystem integrity check on a 5tb HDD with 4gb of ram. Runs out of memory. 16gb is standard nowadays, but 32gb while overkill is still cost-effective and would prevent me from having to upgrade for a while. And it's always nice having the headroom, I think!

Thanks for the tips on the hardware! I will go with an overbuilt power supply and a mini ITX case.

If there are any other tips or tricks for making a reliable, quiet system, I would love to hear them!

So it looks like I need to look specifically for a "quiet" mini ITX case, a "quiet" (large fan?) PS, and if the ITX case is fan cooled, then "quiet" (eg., large diameter?) fans? And those would be the largest source of noise? I definitely plan on integrated graphics.

Any opinions on AMD Ryzens vs Intels? I am much more familiar with Intel CPUs but am open to a Ryzen-based system.

keefaz: How do I know which pre-built systems from Dell, Lenovo, etc have nice performance for audio?

---

I'm also considering building up a slim profile deskside replacement for my current
Dell Precision laptop - M4800 (Quad i7 w/ 16 GB RAM).
I'm experiencing no issues with this current system; I am simply planning ahead, for
a platform that will provide my needs for the next 10+ years (wishful thinking).
So, basic specs are as follows:
- 32 GB RAM -minimum-, 64 GB realistically. This addresses the mantra: "Keep everything
you can in main memory. Never Swap!"

I think 32gb will more than suffice for that purpose, especially considering your specialized usage scenario, and even moreso considering a Linux-based OS, which IMO tend to be much less memory hungry than Windows or Mac OS X. and it will be much more cost-effective than 64gb. You can always upgrade later. But I don't see how buying 64gb now is of any benefit to your circumstance.



Yes, 32-GB RAM is, indeed a lot - at this time. But I'm also looking forward with 10+
years of DAW improvements that will certainly include changes in processing approach
where more and more buffers may be used for spacial and other calculations.
Essentially, I'm just building expansion into my design. Also, remember that memory
gets more dense and cheaper over time so this will be a good way to extend the
usability of your computer given advancements and demands of software.

- (1) NVME M.2 system "disk" (really, an M.2 memory stick. ~ 512 GB). (2) NVME
slots, if possible.
- (2) 1-2TB SSD "app disks" (Samsung EVO "Pro", as available at the time I purchase)
- 3-4 USB 3.0 ports. Since USB 3.0 ports are backward compatible with USB2.0 I
don't need to worry about current audio interface use.

This seems overkill. I don't think you'll notice much any real-world performance increase with NVME vs SATA ssd, and SATA SSD is less expensive and still tons faster than HDD. And likewise, purely for storage, there is nothing wrong with a traditional high capacity HDD, especially for price/storage. For linear access of stored files, it is plenty fast. If it's properly mounted it shouldn't meaningfully contribute to noise during recording, at least not more than the cooling fans.



Again, we're talking about current and near future mother board features and the
trend is having one or more NVME M.2 interfaces on the mother board. Where the
OS will fit comfortably on a 128 or 256 GB M.2 card, the cost of a 512 GB M.2 might
be justified when you consider that TEMP files and other project related files can
be copied onto that system drive and run a LOT quicker than accessing them from
a USB or SATA drive. If there are more than one NVME M.2 interface on the MoBo
then I would definitely make use of it, over time - again, as a point of growth.



Also you MIGHT still want at least one USB 2.0 port. While USB 3.0 is supposed to be backwards compatible, apparently some USB 2.0 devices still don't "play well" with USB 3.0. eg https://support.presonus.com/hc/en-us/ar...th-USB-3-0-



Yup... I won't debate this possibility with you. But, again, I'm looking at current and
upcoming devices, where USB3 is most likely going to be the included interface.
Now... Having said that... I think we can both agree that USB2 comfortably handles
the data streams of up to, what, 100 tracks at 48kHz? So that is not the issue.
What USB3 gives you is the improvements in power for your external devices and
USBC type connections. I would expect that any backward compatibility issues to
USB2 would also be addressed at some point. But, in the meantime, yeah... one or
two USB2 ports might be nice to have as well.

- 1-2 slots for PCIe cards. This will give me options for different multi-input I/O cards,
maybe RMEs - 8-16 channels I/O will be fine for my current (and future) needs.
- PCIe based video card. Whatever works best with my main DAW (currently Mixbus)

Is there a reason for discrete vs integrated (quieter, cheaper) graphics?

Yes! A discrete video card would allow one to address any video driver and other
GPU support issues that currently plague us users of laptops. We currently have no
easy way to "exchange video cards" if/when we have graphics library issues or need
to set newer screen resolutions. Swapping in another video card will address these concerns.


I very much appreciate your exchange and challenge of my choices.
One thing we haven't even touched on is the emergence of "ThunderBolt"!
And, I think that is going to offer even more flexibility and consideration to the final configuration.

Cheers!
Patrick